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aprilvalentineOn the POI Discussion Forum, there has been a lot of discussion about how the "Core Four" are the center of the show and how the addition of new characters could lessen the importance of the original cast members, mainly Carter and Fusco. I have always felt that the term "core four" is a fanon title, never used by the show runners. Never have all four characters appeared in a scene together or worked a case totally together except for "Til Death" this season and they weren't all in the same room at once in that one either. mamahub posted that she feels the show really has a "core duo" in Reese and Finch and that the rest of the show revolves around them. I agreed. Several posts ensued saying that other actors could come in, play other characters and the premise of the show would survive. I felt this was a fallacious argument to try to prove there isn't a core four. Why say the two leads aren't necessary to refute that claim? Why not say, "no the other two are equally important?" Anyway, after a post or two, I was asked the following:
* What makes Reese and Finch core?
* Are they core simply because they are Reese and Finch or are they core because they occupy positions that are essential to the premise of the show according to the introduction?
* What is essential to the mission now? The person of Reese and Finch or the positions they hold?
Here's what I answerd. I thought it would make a good post about how I feel about the show and the characters.
If you look at the show as only being about the Machine finding irrelevants that need to be saved, then anyone could do that job if they had the computer expertise and the skillset. It wouldn't be the same show, but it could be a show called "Person of Interest." Debating that is fine, but I thought the main discussion in this thread was how new characters were objected to by fans because they could make any of the original regular character less valuable.
Nevertheless, Reese and Finch, to me, are the core because they are the two characters introduced at the very beginning of the show. If you're going to talk about the voice over, then all of it has to be considered. Finch tells us about the Machine, then goes on to say, I know because I built it." That makes him a core character in dealing with it. And not only does Finch, in his voice over, talk about the Machine seeing crime and him wanting to prevent it, he says, "but I needed a partner, someone with the skills to intervene" so that role is filled by Reese. Reese is the central character who was a broken man at the beginning and is now able to seek redemption and a way to make up for his sins though the purpose Finch offered him. If the Irrelevants were being helped by regular honest, capable people, then there would be no need for character growth over the course of the episodes. We wouldn't be following the redemption of four broken people if just anyone could help the irrelevants. Finch also says, both seasons, "we work in secret" -- they are vigilantes, working outside the law and dead to the rest of the world, so they can't be just anyone. No two other men are considered dead and have no other ties to the world to allow them to spend all their time helping the irrelevants to the determinent of their own sanity, their own pleasure or passtimes or having friends or family or love in their lives. They made the suicide pact at the beginning of the show to save every irrelevant they can until they've spent the last breaths in their bodies doing so. They are partners in their mission to save the numbers. Even when the Machine wasn't giving out numbers, Reese was compelled to listen to the police band in order to try to be there as soon as possible to save people, that's how invested in the mission he is. They are the core because they can't and won't stop trying to help the numbers, whether they are being pursued by Root, hunted by the government, incarcerated in Rikers, shot, stabbed, in a wheelchair, or if they run out of gas on the highway.
Reese and Finch are designed as the two main character we want to know more about. Reese is introduced as a sincere, honest man in love with a woman, but the next shot we see of him is as a bum on the subway, so the viewer wants to know how he came to that. Finch bails him out to offer him a job -- who is this man who's been watching the former soldier/bum and why has he been watching him? How does he know "exactly everything" about him? Finch tells him that he doesn't need a support group or pills, he needs a purpose. Reese isn't so sure what the strange man wants, he thinks he might be crazy so he doesn't go along until Finch proves to him that he might be able to make a difference. We don't know why Finch decided to help the irrelevants for quite some time, but we've been watching this long to learn the answer to that, to learn how he built and taught the Machine, to learn what has compelled him to give up everything his wealth could buy, including a life of ease and leisure and love, to save the numbers. He tells Reese at the end of the Pilot, that he could still walk away, but Reese has seen that he can make a difference. He went all over the world to find bad guys, but realized they were right in his own back yard all along. He killed for his country, without being given reasons and those killings and his other failures have eaten away at him, nearly destroying him. He believes he has no compassion left, no empathy for his fellow man, but Finch reminds him that he does, that he always wanted just to help people and has shown him a way to do that.
This season, Finch says, "the government considers them irrelevant, we don't" and while he says that, we see Reese and Carter and Fusco's faces go by as the Machine recognizes them. We would also have to account for the Machine recognizing others if it were to give the numbers to other people. Yes, in God Mode, Reese and Root could talk to it and we don't know exactly how that will play out in the coming season. Spin offs could happen in which the Machine could have other assets saving irrelevants in other cities, since it sees everything, everywhere. But the show we are fans of, Person of Interest, has the core characters of Reese and Finch and Carter and Fusco and Shaw and Root and the other recurring characters and bad guys and flash back characters revolve around them. It's their motives that make them want to help the irrelevants, their need for help from the police that have recruited Fusco and Carter. There's no job notification in the New York Times that says, "Wanted, someone with good computer skills and/or special op background to save ordinary people. Pay commensurate with ability. No one with ties to the community or loved ones need apply. No vacations, no sick leave. Death at work a high probability." because I don't see anyone wanting to sign up for the job aside from Finch and Reese.
Carter and Fusco, while important and integral to the plots and the show, also have their own plots and this is because the numbers are not the only reason they exist. They have families, a job they have to do and protect and they've sworn to protect and serve the people of New York already, which makes them available to help the core, Reese and Finch but doesn't ask that they give up their lives for the cause or that they forget they have children and the job they get paid to do.
And if you see the show as only being about the mission to save the irrelevants, then neither Carter nor Fusco are important in that mission either. Any cop could help out so they could be as easily replaced. Reese recruited Fusco because he could use a dirty cop to his own advantage and he wouldn't have to convince a "good cop" to help them when they are vigilantes. If Carter weren't so driven to find out who Reese is and what he was doing, she wouldn't have been recruited either or felt that if she couldn't beat them she should join them. She started as the moral center, the one character without a great feeling of having failed as a person, despite mistakes she may have made, she was not damaged the way Reese or Finch or Fusco are. But in helping Reese and Finch, she has put herself in the position of falling from grace, both as a cop and in her own mind. Other, regular, plain ordinary cops might fill the roles of Fusco and Carter. Someone else could use the Machine to find out about the numbers. But would we care about the show then? Would we want to see how they all redeem themselves? Would we care about their pasts and who they love or how they feel about the numbers?
Everyone has their favorite characters or character, so losing any of them would make the show different and not as enjoyable to those fans. If there's a core four, we can't do without any of them. If there's a core duo, those two character are even more important to the show and to its success. The only time original characters are thrown out by writers and producers is when the show isn't catching on and they feel the need to retool it to capture viewers, when they think the premise is good but the characters are wrong or not working in some way. But POI is going into its third season and has great ratings so that's not what's happening to it.
When I get heavily involved with a show, it usually because there isn't one main character with the rest subordinante, it's because there is a main partnership and that's what draws me to Person of Interest. I've liked shows with male/female partners like Law & Order:SVU and Criminal Intent, or Grey's Anatomy where the main couple has other members of the ensemble revolving around them but yes, I'm most drawn to two male partners. Starsky & Hutch, Jim and Blair in The Sentinel, Steve and Danny on Hawaii Five O but all those shows have also had a background with interests and fascinates me and keeps me coming back for more, to see the partners interacting with the rest of the cast and to deal with their problems and their relationship and their ideals. The idea of two men bonding over a cause, the way Reese and Finch have, is the core of the show to me. But I think I have also made a case for them being the core of the show on all levels.
At this point, we do not have to concern ourselves with whether TPTB are thinking of replacing the characters of Reese and Finch. If that would happen someday, then I think it would be valid to question whether the show could survive without them or if the mission would be served by others performing their duties. The show can be watched as simply a procedural with interchangable characters who are not compelling on their own and without back story, but since most fans are very invested in those characters, why we would need to debate that at this point is mystifying to me.
mamahub posted that she feels the show really has a "core duo" in Reese and Finch and that the rest of the show revolves around them. I agreed. Several posts ensued saying that other actors could come in, play other characters and the premise of the show would survive. I felt this was a fallacious argument to try to prove there isn't a core four. Why say the two leads aren't necessary to refute that claim? Why not say, "no the other two are equally important?" Anyway, after a post or two, I was asked the following:* What makes Reese and Finch core?
* Are they core simply because they are Reese and Finch or are they core because they occupy positions that are essential to the premise of the show according to the introduction?
* What is essential to the mission now? The person of Reese and Finch or the positions they hold?
Here's what I answerd. I thought it would make a good post about how I feel about the show and the characters.
If you look at the show as only being about the Machine finding irrelevants that need to be saved, then anyone could do that job if they had the computer expertise and the skillset. It wouldn't be the same show, but it could be a show called "Person of Interest." Debating that is fine, but I thought the main discussion in this thread was how new characters were objected to by fans because they could make any of the original regular character less valuable.
Nevertheless, Reese and Finch, to me, are the core because they are the two characters introduced at the very beginning of the show. If you're going to talk about the voice over, then all of it has to be considered. Finch tells us about the Machine, then goes on to say, I know because I built it." That makes him a core character in dealing with it. And not only does Finch, in his voice over, talk about the Machine seeing crime and him wanting to prevent it, he says, "but I needed a partner, someone with the skills to intervene" so that role is filled by Reese. Reese is the central character who was a broken man at the beginning and is now able to seek redemption and a way to make up for his sins though the purpose Finch offered him. If the Irrelevants were being helped by regular honest, capable people, then there would be no need for character growth over the course of the episodes. We wouldn't be following the redemption of four broken people if just anyone could help the irrelevants. Finch also says, both seasons, "we work in secret" -- they are vigilantes, working outside the law and dead to the rest of the world, so they can't be just anyone. No two other men are considered dead and have no other ties to the world to allow them to spend all their time helping the irrelevants to the determinent of their own sanity, their own pleasure or passtimes or having friends or family or love in their lives. They made the suicide pact at the beginning of the show to save every irrelevant they can until they've spent the last breaths in their bodies doing so. They are partners in their mission to save the numbers. Even when the Machine wasn't giving out numbers, Reese was compelled to listen to the police band in order to try to be there as soon as possible to save people, that's how invested in the mission he is. They are the core because they can't and won't stop trying to help the numbers, whether they are being pursued by Root, hunted by the government, incarcerated in Rikers, shot, stabbed, in a wheelchair, or if they run out of gas on the highway.
Reese and Finch are designed as the two main character we want to know more about. Reese is introduced as a sincere, honest man in love with a woman, but the next shot we see of him is as a bum on the subway, so the viewer wants to know how he came to that. Finch bails him out to offer him a job -- who is this man who's been watching the former soldier/bum and why has he been watching him? How does he know "exactly everything" about him? Finch tells him that he doesn't need a support group or pills, he needs a purpose. Reese isn't so sure what the strange man wants, he thinks he might be crazy so he doesn't go along until Finch proves to him that he might be able to make a difference. We don't know why Finch decided to help the irrelevants for quite some time, but we've been watching this long to learn the answer to that, to learn how he built and taught the Machine, to learn what has compelled him to give up everything his wealth could buy, including a life of ease and leisure and love, to save the numbers. He tells Reese at the end of the Pilot, that he could still walk away, but Reese has seen that he can make a difference. He went all over the world to find bad guys, but realized they were right in his own back yard all along. He killed for his country, without being given reasons and those killings and his other failures have eaten away at him, nearly destroying him. He believes he has no compassion left, no empathy for his fellow man, but Finch reminds him that he does, that he always wanted just to help people and has shown him a way to do that.
This season, Finch says, "the government considers them irrelevant, we don't" and while he says that, we see Reese and Carter and Fusco's faces go by as the Machine recognizes them. We would also have to account for the Machine recognizing others if it were to give the numbers to other people. Yes, in God Mode, Reese and Root could talk to it and we don't know exactly how that will play out in the coming season. Spin offs could happen in which the Machine could have other assets saving irrelevants in other cities, since it sees everything, everywhere. But the show we are fans of, Person of Interest, has the core characters of Reese and Finch and Carter and Fusco and Shaw and Root and the other recurring characters and bad guys and flash back characters revolve around them. It's their motives that make them want to help the irrelevants, their need for help from the police that have recruited Fusco and Carter. There's no job notification in the New York Times that says, "Wanted, someone with good computer skills and/or special op background to save ordinary people. Pay commensurate with ability. No one with ties to the community or loved ones need apply. No vacations, no sick leave. Death at work a high probability." because I don't see anyone wanting to sign up for the job aside from Finch and Reese.
Carter and Fusco, while important and integral to the plots and the show, also have their own plots and this is because the numbers are not the only reason they exist. They have families, a job they have to do and protect and they've sworn to protect and serve the people of New York already, which makes them available to help the core, Reese and Finch but doesn't ask that they give up their lives for the cause or that they forget they have children and the job they get paid to do.
And if you see the show as only being about the mission to save the irrelevants, then neither Carter nor Fusco are important in that mission either. Any cop could help out so they could be as easily replaced. Reese recruited Fusco because he could use a dirty cop to his own advantage and he wouldn't have to convince a "good cop" to help them when they are vigilantes. If Carter weren't so driven to find out who Reese is and what he was doing, she wouldn't have been recruited either or felt that if she couldn't beat them she should join them. She started as the moral center, the one character without a great feeling of having failed as a person, despite mistakes she may have made, she was not damaged the way Reese or Finch or Fusco are. But in helping Reese and Finch, she has put herself in the position of falling from grace, both as a cop and in her own mind. Other, regular, plain ordinary cops might fill the roles of Fusco and Carter. Someone else could use the Machine to find out about the numbers. But would we care about the show then? Would we want to see how they all redeem themselves? Would we care about their pasts and who they love or how they feel about the numbers?
Everyone has their favorite characters or character, so losing any of them would make the show different and not as enjoyable to those fans. If there's a core four, we can't do without any of them. If there's a core duo, those two character are even more important to the show and to its success. The only time original characters are thrown out by writers and producers is when the show isn't catching on and they feel the need to retool it to capture viewers, when they think the premise is good but the characters are wrong or not working in some way. But POI is going into its third season and has great ratings so that's not what's happening to it.
When I get heavily involved with a show, it usually because there isn't one main character with the rest subordinante, it's because there is a main partnership and that's what draws me to Person of Interest. I've liked shows with male/female partners like Law & Order:SVU and Criminal Intent, or Grey's Anatomy where the main couple has other members of the ensemble revolving around them but yes, I'm most drawn to two male partners. Starsky & Hutch, Jim and Blair in The Sentinel, Steve and Danny on Hawaii Five O but all those shows have also had a background with interests and fascinates me and keeps me coming back for more, to see the partners interacting with the rest of the cast and to deal with their problems and their relationship and their ideals. The idea of two men bonding over a cause, the way Reese and Finch have, is the core of the show to me. But I think I have also made a case for them being the core of the show on all levels.
At this point, we do not have to concern ourselves with whether TPTB are thinking of replacing the characters of Reese and Finch. If that would happen someday, then I think it would be valid to question whether the show could survive without them or if the mission would be served by others performing their duties. The show can be watched as simply a procedural with interchangable characters who are not compelling on their own and without back story, but since most fans are very invested in those characters, why we would need to debate that at this point is mystifying to me.
